# Dynamic plasma discussions
**URL:** https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62
**Category:** Development
**Created:** [May 17, 2023, 12:45pm UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62 "2023-05-17T12:45:23Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 8
### Author:  [@MoonBaze](https://forum.hypercore.one/u/MoonBaze)
#### Post date: [October 17, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62/141 "2023-10-17T18:54:47Z")
[https://twitter.com/LiveOverflow/status/1714342123724574979](https://twitter.com/LiveOverflow/status/1714342123724574979)
This seems like the same issue to me, I don’t see any solution now that would not render sending a transaction impossible for the regular user in case of spam without optional fees.
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### Author:  [@Chadass](https://forum.hypercore.one/u/Chadass)
#### Post date: [October 17, 2023, 9:29pm UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62/142 "2023-10-17T21:29:13Z")
In case of spam wouldn’t the fee be astronomically high? We saw that on both BTC and ETH with hundreds of $$$ required to send a tx in case of high congestion. How is this a solution?
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### Author:  [@Stark](https://forum.hypercore.one/u/Stark)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2023, 1:49am UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62/143 "2023-10-19T01:49:54Z")
When a node performs PoW, does that contribute to faster or bigger momentums? If PoW adds value, I don’t understand why it should ever cause a problem.
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### Author:  [@MoonBaze](https://forum.hypercore.one/u/MoonBaze)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2023, 10:23am UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62/144 "2023-10-19T10:23:13Z")
The base fee is relatively small, 1/200 ZNN, which could be modified in the future by governance maybe in case znn goes to 200$ for example.
I still believe that giving the user a choice is the best option, it’s much better rather than them not being able to even send a tx. We need both a dynamic plasma / pow mechanism and optional fees in order to have a complete solution.
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### Author:  [@MoonBaze](https://forum.hypercore.one/u/MoonBaze)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2023, 10:23am UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62/145 "2023-10-19T10:23:51Z")
PoW does not add value, it’s just an anti spam mechanism right now
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### Author:  [@georgezgeorgez](https://forum.hypercore.one/u/georgezgeorgez)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2023, 4:06pm UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62/146 "2023-10-19T16:06:28Z")
Pow adds weight.
And weight adds value because there is cost to fabricating chain data.
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### Author:  [@aliencoder](https://forum.hypercore.one/u/aliencoder)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2023, 8:14pm UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62/147 "2023-10-19T20:14:36Z")
> [@MoonBaze](#):
>
> I still believe that giving the user a choice is the best option, it’s much better rather than them not being able to even send a tx. We need both a dynamic plasma / pow mechanism and optional fees in order to have a complete solution.
I agree a holistic approach is the best one in the long run.
> [@georgezgeorgez](#):
>
> And weight adds value because there is cost to fabricating chain data.
.
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### Author:  [@MoonBaze](https://forum.hypercore.one/u/MoonBaze)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2023, 8:49pm UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62/148 "2023-10-19T20:49:40Z")
Not in the current implementation
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### Author:  [@aliencoder](https://forum.hypercore.one/u/aliencoder)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2023, 3:14pm UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62/149 "2023-11-04T15:14:18Z")
**Dynamic Plasma Proposal**
Current implementation:
1. Every address has a corresponding account-chain where every account-block represents a transaction.
2. Transactions are confirmed by the consensus in a separate structure which forms the dual-ledger
3. Currently, a basic anti-spam mechanism exists:
3.1 Plasma obtained by generating Proof-of-Work: every user can generate a SHA-3 based PoW to send or receive transactions.
3.2 Plasma obtained by fusing QSR: every user can fuse a minimum of 10 QSR for any address for a minimum of 10 hours to send or receive transactions.
**Problems with current implementation**
1. There is no positive feedback loop built into the system because transactions are feeless (Ethereum for example burns fees =\> the more the system is used =\> the better for every stakeholder in the system)
2. ZNN needs to achieve equilibrium like QSR (burned or used as fee)
3. Thresholds are hardcoded
**Solution**
Implement a hybrid Plasma system with 2 lanes:
1. A feeless lane where users can still use PoW and QSR to generate Plasma.
2. A fee-based lane where users _ **burn** _\* an amount of ZNN to generate Plasma.
(\*) Burning ZNN makes sense long term, as validators already produce ZNN inflation indefinitely.
- We need an algorithm to balance those lanes as the network gets congested.
- We need to remove the hardcoded values from the feeless mechanism and implement dynamic thresholds.
- We need to replace SHA-3 with an ASIC-resistant PoW.
- Also we need a method to measure transaction “quality” that will determine the minimum Plasma thresholds:
**Future work: PoW links**
The whitepaper mentions PoW links where Sentinels take the role of crafting them by attaching a PoW and signing them (MrK already specified that this PoW can be outsourced to other clients). Currently, validators have the role of adding transactions to blocks and processing them. However, this can introduce new problems such as:
- Censoring transactions
- MEV
- Improper ordering of transactions
By adding a separate layer of nodes to “prepare” transactions, many of those problems can be avoided.
@georgezgeorgez @MoonBaze @sumamu @0x3639 @sol @CryptoFish @Chadass
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### Author:  [@Chadass](https://forum.hypercore.one/u/Chadass)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2023, 5:31pm UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62/150 "2023-11-04T17:31:30Z")
I will dig into this asap but so far it sounds like a god compromise given the discussion we had. Thanks for this.
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### Author:  [@aliencoder](https://forum.hypercore.one/u/aliencoder)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2023, 7:42pm UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62/151 "2023-11-04T19:42:54Z")
By adding a fee-based lane, we will also streamline integrations with the wider crypto ecosystem:
- integrations with popular wallets such as [TrustWallet](https://github.com/trustwallet/wallet-core)
- integrations with CEX
- other integrations that require a different model from the standard one based on fees
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### Author:  [@Shazz](https://forum.hypercore.one/u/Shazz)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2023, 10:00pm UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62/152 "2023-11-04T22:00:00Z")
If fees are introduced (apparently as a hitherto unknown necessity due to most peoples’ beliefs that merge mining would be sufficient), what will be the share of feeless txs vs paid ones at high network usage and doesnt this ultimately undermine one of the key value props of zenon (assuming it will actually become an L1 eventually)?
If merge mining is implemented, won’t there be fees to pay to miners too though?
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### Author:  [@Stark](https://forum.hypercore.one/u/Stark)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2023, 10:32pm UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62/153 "2023-11-04T22:32:55Z")
How about using btc as gas?
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### Author:  [@Chadass](https://forum.hypercore.one/u/Chadass)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2023, 11:04pm UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62/154 "2023-11-04T23:04:43Z")
Why? To be able to say we’re feeless because it’s another coin? What would be the benefit?
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### Author:  [@Stark](https://forum.hypercore.one/u/Stark)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2023, 5:16pm UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62/155 "2023-11-05T17:16:51Z")
What are the stated purposes of introducing a fee mechanism?
Do those purposes imply any reason to use ZNN or QSR?
What is the hardest and most valuable cryptocurrency?
Would having a reserve of BTC locked in NoM serve some utility purpose in terms of interop or defi?
How do Bitcoin devs perceive projects that feature tokens?
Why do most projects use one token for governance, staking, yield, and gas?
What problems result from using one (or two) currencies for everything?
What other projects use BTC as the principle protocol level gas currency?
Would btc gas provide some minimum viable reasoning for the new logos and stickers?
Does it feel intriguing?
I think I might rather see NoM remain feeless, and then see an extension chain that might use BTC as gas. However, if this fee thing turns out to be widely supported and inevitable, then I feel BTC gas would be a much higher vibe than ZNN/QSR. Could the BTC lane be dynamic?
Maybe NoM is fundamentally feeless, but BTC gas transactions have priority up to 100% if the demand arises.
I have more questions, than answers, but I hope some others will be willing discuss the questions I posed above.
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### Author:  [@Shazz](https://forum.hypercore.one/u/Shazz)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2023, 5:37pm UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62/156 "2023-11-05T17:37:21Z")
Maybe it would help the discussion in this thread (it’s a dev chat after all) if the questions asked were more narrowed down and to the point @Stark - or use the other forum for less technical brainstorming? Just a suggestion since we have few dev resources
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### Author:  [@Stark](https://forum.hypercore.one/u/Stark)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2023, 5:54pm UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62/157 "2023-11-05T17:54:23Z")
Btw, I am 100 percent ok with being banned if my participation in this forum is outside the scope. I only know how to be myself and if the way I interpret these discussions and this forum is incorrect, just kick me out. No hard feelings.
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### Author:  [@aliencoder](https://forum.hypercore.one/u/aliencoder)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2023, 6:15pm UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62/158 "2023-11-05T18:15:50Z")
> [@Stark](#):
>
> What are the stated purposes of introducing a fee mechanism?
Creating a feedback positive loop inside the ecosystem. Burning ZNN benefits every stakeholder from the ecosystem.
> [@Stark](#):
>
> Do those purposes imply any reason to use ZNN or QSR?
QSR is already used as proxy for generating Plasma. Burning ZNN makes sense in the long term, as QSR is already burned for creating Pillar slots.
> [@Stark](#):
>
> What is the hardest and most valuable cryptocurrency?
Bitcoin.
> [@Stark](#):
>
> Would having a reserve of BTC locked in NoM serve some utility purpose in terms of interop or defi?
This is beyond the scope of this discussion. We can use the TSS that secures the bridge to create a BTC vault.
> [@Stark](#):
>
> How do Bitcoin devs perceive projects that feature tokens?
Scams.
> [@Stark](#):
>
> Why do most projects use one token for governance, staking, yield, and gas?
Simplicity.
> [@Stark](#):
>
> What problems result from using one (or two) currencies for everything?
This is beyond the scope of this discussion.
> [@Stark](#):
>
> What other projects use BTC as the principle protocol level gas currency?
Liquid network I guess. To incorporate BTC as gas into the network we need access to the state of the Bitcoin blockchain. It’s feasible, but I don’t see an implementation at this stage.
Burning ZNN is the most logical thing to implement right now, because at the moment ZNN is only produced as inflation. We need a counter-balancing force.
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### Author:  [@aliencoder](https://forum.hypercore.one/u/aliencoder)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2023, 6:18pm UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62/159 "2023-11-05T18:18:35Z")
> [@Shazz](#):
>
> what will be the share of feeless txs vs paid ones at high network usage
> [@aliencoder](#):
>
> - We need an algorithm to balance those lanes as the network gets congested.
A minimum threshold for feeless transactions can be implemented (reserving min 10% of a momentum’s capacity).
> [@Shazz](#):
>
> If merge mining is implemented, won’t there be fees to pay to miners too though?
I guess Pillars setting up PoW pools will distribute a fraction of their rewards accordingly (similarly to paying delegators right now). IMO merge mining is another topic that should be discussed separately from dynamic plasma.
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### Author:  [@Chadass](https://forum.hypercore.one/u/Chadass)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2023, 9:20pm UTC](https://forum.hypercore.one/t/dynamic-plasma-discussions/62/160 "2023-11-05T21:20:02Z")
I just add to my first answe here and to precise things for @aliencoder and others: fee by themlselves WILL NOT benefit anykind of holders. I assume the idea here is that having fee means ZNN are burned which would translate in a somewhat better price action.
I never saw it, ever. It simply doesn’t work that way. The fee rarely balance the inflation. It’s never more than a minuscule % VS the tokens emission.
What you need is demand (hype, usecase, whatever). Your price action is the result of a lot of factors and a ton of highly inflationary systems (fee or not) see themselves going up - price wise - with the force of a thousand virgins and for a very long time - even with tokens unlocks hammering the supply on a montly basis. Talking about (not nash) equilibrium between burning mechanisms and inflationary policies is dangerously naive.
If this is one of the main reason for people to throw away the feeless paradigm we thought was the core of ZNN I suggest to reconsider.
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